Unless you kill enough of their paper thin ships to stop a gank. Which is pretty easy in a rail fit Moa, by the way.

The system is not broken, what is "broken" is **** poor attitudes like yours, where you want the goddamned NPCs to do your job for you.

Stop being lazy, stop being so risk averse, and go out there and do what you are supposed to do in a PvP game.

You have said repeatedly that you will only engage with someone who is already under fire from CONCORD, you have also stated you are proactive in terms of ganking avoidance, what risks are you talking about again?

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I fly expensive ships worth billions of isk, entering into a limited engagement with a ganker would entail major risk for me. Even just flying around with the possibility of being ganked carries significant risk. Not so for dedicated gank alts who fly cheap gank ships that they expect to lose anyway. Their total possible risk exposure is ship + pod, which is often worth 100x less than my ship + pod. So yes, their choice to fly cheap gank ships is a form of risk aversion, much like my choice to fly expensive ships is a form of risk taking. But that is fine, what troubles me is a) how easy it is for a gang of gankalysts to destroy my extremely expensive battleship, and b) the lack of real consequences to them of doing so, despite their being career criminal suicide gankers.

EVE rule # 1

-Never undock in a ship you can't afford to replace.

You don't get meaningful responses because

• You are belligerent
• you are wrong
• we don't actually have to prove you so, you do that yourself
• you want to kill eve (effectively)

How's that?

I fixed it for you.

Keep feeding him guys, that's exactly what he wants.

Define loophole. What is the final idea, no ganking in Highsec? That would probably be an easy fix. Just get rid of that red setting in the safety settings and you are done. Or is the idea to nerf ganking so much that it is virtually impossible and no one will ever attempt it?

Dude you don't properly analyze anything. It's like it is impossible for you simply say "this is the game I choose to play and it operates like this...".

I hate to call someone fail at gaming...but you are getting close buddy. Quit asking for tons of changes to the game. Adapt and enjoy your 15 a month, or find something else that makes you happy.

And as for the tanking discussion....yes, 10 or 12 dessies should be able to pop your bling BS. You know why? Because that's 10 or 12 people playing the game TOGETHER. Plus destroyer's are meant as high dps with low tank. Run with a crew of AF's if you want protection from the big bad gankers.

And quit telling people their arguments have no weight just because you don't agree. Just adapt to the game and have fun instead of trying to be that pickle faced aunt that always comes over for Thanksgiving and expects everything to be her way.

That is risk mitigation.

You are the one demonstrating risk aversion, and a disgusting level of it in fact, by wanting to have your Machariel's tank tripled just because it costs more. Nevermind demonstrating a staggering level of ignorance as to how EVE's cost/benefit ratio works, and the concept of marketing.

Maybe you'd be happier Veers if the player-driven economy was replaced with something that ensured that the cost of things scaled with their attributes?

The player-driven economy is one of the games greatest features. Why do you hate it so much? Did you lose at PvP there too?

Way to put a GANK ME sign on your back.

And BTW Veers...I'm not a ganker. I'm a pvp'er and still pretty young in this game, but at least I now "get it". You really need to just accept the game the way it is and you will have more fun.

In all honesty those gankers have every right to target people with the blingy ships. Just because you invested way too Mich isk in your ship doesn't make you immune to the same thing that everyone else delas with.

Actually...I kinda hope they gank you now. If I was super rich I'd pay the cost of your BS for a code killmail. Instead I'll just hope they do it and offer to replace the catalysts used to bring down your navy-issue-rattlesnake-decipticon-battleship that's brobably painted pink and has those stupid stick figured on the back window.

I don't want you yanked out of any dislike...I want you ganked so you get to PvP with people.

its been awhile since we have seen one of these posts hmmmmmm. Creativity -4, originality -7, Spergs -10 bro you sound mad are you mad bro hey bro are you mad bro bro bro hey bro whats wrong bro are you mad bro you look mad bro bro bro.

My brain nearly melted when I read this, but after some deep breathing, I have confirmed to myself that I am indeed still conscious and not in a mad dream.

1. The scarcity of materials is largely player-driven. Take the Mach. It's scarcity is determined by the rate at which players get BPCs and build them (or trade LP whatever). Believe it not, and I understand this may be hard to grasp, but even the tritanium supply is determined by... players! Of course, CCP put roids here and there, but they don't force players to mine.

2. That any Machs die at all to anything, is player-driven. Do I really need to say more? Nobody forced you to enter that mission and die to rats. Nobody forced you to fit and fly your Mach such that 10 catalysts would reduce it to a wreck. Players make choices and things happen.

3. Almost all prices are player-driven, apart from some items sold by NPCs. You say that mineral cost is not player driven? Did you know that when you sell minerals, you can change the price? Try it!

4. I don't think anyone is going to believe your claims that you are a PvP expert, sorry

Veers youl ove to focus on the rarest and most expensive ships in the game, while completely ignoring how many T1 ships like the Procurer or the Drake are nearly impossible to gank with positive efficiency when tanked correctly. In your world, a pirate cruiser has like 10x the EHP of a T1 cruiser, because :isk: . Somehow, this is balanced.

Let us truly digest your suggestions for a moment. An Astero would be as difficult to kill as some T1 battleships.

Such logic. Much wow. Clearly the fact that faction battleships require more player effort to make than destroyers is proof that all my other arguments are invalid. I can see now that there is no player-driven element at all here. CCP merely plops the hulls out of their backsides into the lap of whichever player is most deserving. The actual prices involved are forcibly imposed upon us all by the random whims of server hamsters. If they get enough treats then it brings the prices down. I get it!

You are so logical oh mighty master of New Eden. What more wisdom do you have to share with us? Perhaps some pro pvp tips?

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah....*Takes a deep breath*


BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Oh my god Veers, That almost gave me cancer. The Material does not determine cost. Only the amount needed to make it. But that doesn't factor the actually cost. The Market will decide the cost.

They give 3rd graders economic lessons? Where do you live? China?


And please. Inform me. Because all I've seen was EVE Tin-Foil so far.

I know that we've already established that the player-driven market is an illusion and it's all down to the hamsters. But I am really struggling with how the hamsters set the price of Plex. Can you please elaborate on this?

I am being serious

You have shown us all how the economy is quite difficult for some to comprehend. I believe that truly, the only person in the thread who can answer my question is you, given your advanced knowledge of the subject.

What determines the price of plex?

Right so ganking is good then, since it forces miners to stop mining, and causes the loss of assets, forcing the price to go UP!


YEAH! GO GANKING!

Might I suggest a little less of the aforementioned "3rd grade econ" and a bit more of 101 level philosophy.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info

Also please note the use of the fallacy in the suggesting that 3rd graders learn Economics specifically.

ohhhh, you should stretch before doing mental gymnastics dude, you have said otherwise in this very thread.

Clearly the teaching of third graders, presumably preteen, economics is a hyperbolic statement to claim "this is so simple even a cave man can do it"

That is a logical fallasy. Q.E.D.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D.

There is no indication that mining has increased in the last time. If you look at the traded Tritanium volume, and I would say this is a good indication for the amount of mining done, it's actually down quite a bit over the last months.

The PLEX inflation will likely continue until something is done against all this risk free ISK money machines in Highsec. This players like yourself have almost no cost do to almost perfect safety and easy game mechanics, so their only target left is to grind ISK for PLEX. Because there is obviously more demand than supply the price is increasing as long as a dedicated incursion runner income can finance it.

But rather than complaining to CCP, because they won't listen anyway, their ranks are full of carebears who steer the game into the abyss this days, we can do something about this on our own. Gank an incursion runner today and stop the ISK inflation death spiral of PLEX.

Rekt by a 2 kill solo PvP expert.

Confused

I blame all these coalitions that are passively making ISK and not blowing up enough ships against each other for the devaluation of ISK.

GRR GOONS!

There.

I mean, you can throw out MANY reasons for causation, but one should actually back that up with data instead of saying silly things like isolating mining as the culprit.

So what is your prescription for this ailment? Do you think that highsec should be made less risky by further nerfing suicide ganking, or perhaps, that the continual tide of nerfs to highsec PvP should be stopped, and perhaps even reversed, to try to bring some balance back to the risk vs. reward in highsec?

I am confused. You think the New Order should do more bumping because it will **** the miners off less than ganking them, yet some how this will convince them to engage more with other aspects of the game? If they are pissed off less won't they just mine more oblivious to the real Eve that guys like me and you play?

And as you admit this will have little effect on the true bots. At least ganking those usually shuts the bot down until the botmaster returns to reset things.

I think you need to think a little more about your ideas on this. Until you present something better than that Veers, I will be staying on team James 315.

That is kinda weird. It's OK to bump miners, but it's not OK to bump freighters. Nevermind that a good freighter gank removes a helluva lot more minerals from the game than bumping a miner for 10 minutes.

We have rampant deflation, but taking actions to remove minerals from the game (via ganking) is bad.

Kids these days.....

I really think he must be on drugs or some other kind of severe intoxicant at this point.

But the question remains, which ones? My first guess is shrooms, or paint thinner.

There are no issues, just you campaigning for changes that would severely damage the game from your position of complete ignorance.

At this point, the only issue is what your brain damaging intoxicant of choice might be.

One of us certainly is, if you think that deflation is harmful to the game in any way, or actually happening on any noteworthy scale what's more.

The "one of us" is you, by the way. But given the frankly astonishing level of ignorance you have displayed pretty much with every post since you first blighted these forums, that is not surprising to me.

Basing a declaration of deflation on ship and plex prices, then trying to tie that back to minerals, is a massively simplistic and incorrect view of EVE's economy.

This Disagrees with your declaration of "massively increasing PLEX price, BtW.

Ravens and Megathrons also disagree with your statement of moderate decline. There's a big dip around 7/23/2014, and then everything looks pretty stable, or slowly rising.


Of course, I may be interpreting the data totally wrong, and I invite anyone with an actual clue about the market to correct me.

Still so many good laughs in this thread. I specifically like the ones from Veers where he's pontificating on his knowledge of EvE economics, yet lacking in the ability to read the graphs and still differentiate between inflation and deflation.

Here you go, Veers, just for you.

When the value of the given currency decreases, causing prices to go up, this is inflation.
When the value of the given currency increases, causing prices to go down, this is deflation.

Now, you see all those pretty, squiggly lines on the market graph? See the trend for them to go up? That is called inflation, and caused when there is an excess of available currency, which lowers the value of said currency.

I paid attention in my 3rd grade economics class.

Here Veers, a few terms you need to google up and get numbers for. Rather than using a nebulous "ship prices" and "Plex", try the following.


Mineral Price Index
Primary Producer Price Index
Secondary Producer Price Index
Consumer Price Index.

That's a start, and don't forget to correlate CCP nerfs/buffs in there too, seeing as how we aren't dealing with a purely static system.



If you don't feel like hunting up the numbers, I'll drop you a hint. EVE has been operating under pretty steady inflation over the years (as shown by plex, which is generally untouched by CCP buff/nerf cycles). All those pretty swings you see on "ship prices" come from CCP actions.

I actually like being proven wrong about something in Eve. It generally means I had a bad idea on how something worked. On being proven wrong, I have a better idea.

I mean, it's a video game, who cares.

I have been discretely observing the highsec incursion runner community for some time now, and I have come to the to conclusion that they are the lowest order of EVE players. They are worse even than miners - miners are just lazy and uncreative. While those are certainly character flaws, they are much more innocent in nature than what we see in Incursion runners.

Incursion runners actually work at becoming more bot-like. They obsess over isk per hour, they spare no expense fitting their ships to absolutely optimize their efficiency. Some of them are so far gone that you can't even talk to them as you do to other eve players. They have developed their own dialect. You start a conversation with one of them and they start going on about "vanguards" and "assaults" and all sorts of other nonsensical jargon.

They even come to the forums and try and twist perfectly good threads about those who blow up spaceships and those who cry about it into some kind of argument about the price of PLEX and the nature of the EVE economy. Who gives a crap about the price of PLEX anyway? I'll tell you - incursion runners do. Because they are bad people.

Ohh, calling him a troll in the first sentence? I guess the truth truly does hurt, as that was an emotional response to a logical point. Whether or not incursions can actually be botted doesn't mean anything Haedonism stated is blatantly untrue.

I tried to get into incursions a year or so back. The options I were given then were one of two choices, either spend billions of isk o the perfect fit, or train into logi. I chose to train into logi, and after training logistics 5, was given another list of other skills I needed to train to 5 before I would be allowed into fleets, training that ammounted to almost 9 months of training. My response was to say eff that, and I moved into a wormhole where I was still allowed into fleets, even though I lacked perfect skills.

These are your incursion runners. The perfect skilled, perfect bling fit, gods help you if you slow down them maximizing their isk/hr because you've never done incursions before, wannabe bots doing the same sites day in and day out.

At least miners sometimes decide to point beams at a different color spinning rock.

Train another level of reading comprehansion. The emotional response was calling him a troll for pointing out the truth.

My experiences with incursions were a) the norm of the four groups I contacted, and b) evidence of elitism, not competence.

If you're loosing ships on a regular basis doing anything other than suicide ganking you are just plain terrible. This just shows how far out in space Veers is.

I hereby nominate Veers the Tribal leader of all Incursionland. He will faithfully defend his little niche of Eve to his last breath and simultaneously try to nerf your playstyle into the ground.

If you look at my posts in this thread carefully, you will see that my arguments against incursion runners were so airtight that Veers did not even attempt to respond to them. Rather he blathered on about how incursion runners are less botlike than miners - a point which others took up and ran with, but which I never disputed.

So I have reason to believe that I actually roundly defeated Veers in this particular contest of wits, since he pretty much forfeited.

You're making me hungry and I need to lose weight!

So nullsec shouldn't be more profitable than highsec?

so go rat out there in your blingiest ship then Oh Elite Veers Killer of Sansha Belvar.

Really?

When was the last time your incursion lit a cyno and bridged in reinforcements that weren't set on a particular trigger ship, causing you to try and withdraw your fleet through the bubbles of 25-50 interdictors?
When was the last time you warped into an incursion expecting all the ships to be fit the way they normally are, but suddenly find that your brawler fit fleet now has to deal with kiters, causing you to have to adapt?
Nevermind either of those, when was the last time your precious incursion site wasn't the exact same spawns, in the exact same place, at the exact same time, as every other incursion site of the same type?

Elite PvE is nothing but an oxymoron, and anyone who believes otherwise needs some heavy duty psychiatric medication.

Except us non-elite types have to contend with nullsec having absolutely no mechanics that deter people from shooting us. This is called "more risk than highsec". When you have an omnipotent reaction force that deals with any kind of offensive action by bad people (and can't be tanked, killed or evaded in any way) that's called "much less risk than anywhere else in the game".

I've lost my elite to mere mortal dictionary so I apologise if I've not communicated the above clearly enough for you, Grand Beers Veldspar, elite interwebs spaceship pilot.

What? Seriously.... What? Have you ever lived in nullsec? Sure there are empty systems, but in no way is high sec more dangerous than null sec. Let's see...

How often do you have tactical points around gates you normally use in high sec?

How often do you have to check Intel in high sec?

How many times have you gone through a gate and found yourself in a bubble of doom in high sec?

How many times have you gone through a gate and a stealth bomber drop a bomb on you in high sec?

...and the questions can go on and on.

High sec, even with CODE and other gankers running around, is so safe that you can travel afk and survive 99.99% of the time. Get real man.

Ah, here is the clincher, guys.

He got popped once in a three month period for autopiloting, and that means highsec is less safe than nullsec.

Bravo.

so that means outopiloting in null is risk free then?

Fail. In 3 months I autopiloted 0 times. I decided to try it....and promptly got ganked. Not a targetted gank, just a guy shooting autopiloting shuttles.

Given your constant shitposting and outstanding ignorance of anything relating to game mechanics outside of Incursions I would hazard a guess that it was indeed a targeted gank. There is nothing random about people shooting you given the size of the target you painted on your own back.

Veers you have no clue what you are talking about. Null is not safe...at all...ever, especially in Catch where I live. Yeah we have hose Intel channels because it ISN'T safe you dingleberry. CODE camping two systems with catalysts does not make hi sec more dangerous than null.

You are delusional and full of it. Have you ever even lived in null? I'm guessing not. I'm guessing you went on a roam. Couple of times in a super deserted area and thought you were badass because of it. If null is so safe, how about you come hang out with us down in Catch around the EX6-AO area.

We would live your company!

You're right I didn't, what of it? Given the size of the target you've painted on your own back the probability is fairly high that somebody will gank you sooner or later simply for being you.

Firstly by its very nature an opinion can't be false or inaccurate.

opinion (in context of the post you're nitpicking)
(noun)
a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

Secondly I never stated it to be a fact, I hazarded a guess, which by its very nature is not a fact.

guess (in context of the post you're nitpicking)
(verb) (used without object)
an opinion that one reaches or to which one commits oneself on the basis of probability alone or in the absence of any evidence whatever.

L2English.

Should I be bothered that you find my opinion irrelevant? You're certainly not going to shoot me over it.

You are pointing out low population areas and relating that to all of null...yet you point at TWO systems in hi sec and think that applies to everything.

OK...not just Catch. Go to Providence, VOLT, anywhere with people and see how long you survive.

The idea that hi sec is dangerous is a complete joke and its almost as funny as you.

Lame posts + delusions = Veersforum

Most of high sec has ganking?! False! Its something you hardly ever see outside of CODE systems. You are throwing around terms like "blue donut" as if you were some kind of experienced pro on the topic.

You know why so much area is empty? It has no strategic value. You can't measure the safety of an area by pointing to the empty spaces.

I don't have a superiority complex. I have not once claimed to be a PvP expert, unlike you with the ultrabad killboard. You just spew forth tons of lame and can't back anything up. Do you really feel that bad about your care bearing that you have to build a little fantasy world where you live on the edge of danger? Its sad Veers. Really sad.

So you actually care quite a bit?

I could care less is the exact opposite of I couldn't care less.

As Jonah so succinctly put it "L2English"

Veers your killboard is about as healthy as mine. That means its dragging one foot and dying from thirst. At least I can claim really low SP and flying tackle.

Who cares if you are wealthy? I'm wealthy too.... Yank yank. No one cares. "I'm a PvE player" = I'm a robot! Have fun living in your boring delusion.

Feel miserable about myself? What in the hell are you talking about? You are elite nothing. You are a lame ass high sec carebear. You aren't elite.

Let's see...

Character creation... You look like an autistic Michael Jackson. Fail.

PvE.... You enjoy it in a PvP game. Fail.

PvP.... Extremely subpar for you character life and SP level. Fail.

Grasp of reality. Extremely fail.

You are an EVE failure.

The language is called English, as in from England, not the US
As I said while the expression may well be valid in the US, it is considered poor form elsewhere.

You really do need to check your ego, if it gets much bigger you'll have to get another account for it.

Trust me. One day our paths will cross. :-) then you can show me how elite you think you are. Then after you reship you can show me again. I love blowing up blingy ships.

I don't operate by your schedule. I'm not a wannabe ganker either. You are already in the hot air department. It'll happen when it happens. I don't spend alot of time in high sec... So i'll come play EVE with you when it suits me...not you.

If you are so l33t why don't you come on down to my neck of woods. Oh...that's right...you wouldn't even survive the trip. You'd get popped within two jumps of entering null. I don't play in an empty pocket off in the middle of nowhere.

i have, shes a nebie hero tackle, whats your excuse oh veers "l337" belvar

The difference between you and James is quite obvious, he has actually done something via organising others, you on the other hand just ignorantly shitpost a lot.

Incidentally, blocked for being an ignorant tool, a jingoist, a troll, and having an ego that makes the average politician look respectable.

What didn't make sense? You said it is the same as any other MMO, you are misinformed, it is not.
Can I just go up to anyone I want in WOW in any location and kill them then take their stuff whether they have consented to said PVP or not?

Everyone is welcome to PVE all they want, the thing you have to remember is that PVP can and will find you eventually, the solution is to learn what you did wrong and how to protect yourself better, not to cry on the forums about how unbalanced the game is. The game is extremely balanced if you take a few simple steps to properly protect yourself. It only seems unbalanced if you are grossly ignorant and/or complacent.

Veers doesn't think he's an elite PvPer. He's trolling you guys by using the same rhetoric James 315 does in his blog. He's probably laughing his ass off each time one of you responds to it.

You do understand that if I go afk for mere seconds in space a 1.0 system that I am punished by the police? Also, i fly about in space a lot. It's fun. I get people chasing me too. They use probes and stuff you know, but that just makes it all the more fun.

Perhaps you could try to hunt me down? I provide content for those that do!

Bot-like lol

Now Veers, counter this with trolling all you like, but you are so wrong it's not even funny. And I ain't responding unless you make seriously good points.

Having to pay attention & constantly warp around until you find a suitable target is more mindless than pushing a button every 30 minutes then watching a movie. Classic Veers logic.

I'm really surprised this thread is still going.

Veers... If I ran a massive organization like the goons, you bet I would use a scam for recruitment. The ones that fell for it would be considered too stupid to get in. Period. Alot of this game is meta. If you arent intelligent enough to apply some common sense to your play it isn't the game for you.

Once again...if you autopilot all over the place in a shuttle then you are a dingaling. All over the internet ganking, scamming, and unexpected chaos is mentioned with EVE. Its not exactly a secret.

If you want a game to hold your half and keep you safe while you accumulate massive amounts of currency then play WoW or one of the other many rehashed mmos that exist.

You say that people leave the game because of it's harshness, and some may, but 10x that many will leave if this becomes Teletubbies in space.

No harsher punishments need to incur, people need to quit being a wuss and realize the glory that is EVE.

No they teach them how to bot instead.

As a newbie, while you were still bumbling about in frigates and destroyers?

It's such a shame that you were never targeted by the Goons recruitment scam, the forums would have been better all round if you'd been driven out months ago.

That's how it does work, if you don't like it you can leave, make sure to close the door behind you.

Both scams rely on the victim to be dumb and/or greedy. "A fool and his money are soon parted" is as true in Eve as it is in the real world.

The search result may vary depending on your location, it's certainly the first result when using google.co.uk. FYI it's here

No new player can afford to buy into that scam. It's as simple as that.

Stop using new players as a smokescreen to hide your disgusting risk aversion.

I feel that with the semi-recent boosts to mining ship's EHP and lows on freighters that there should be a global reduction on the GCC to 5min.

Since when is autopiloting anything, anywhere supposed to be safe?

If it is, it's because people have come together as a group to make it so. Never flown freighter but been told a webber friend get you around most often before any bumper gets you dead in the waters.

Do you think a dedicated effort from a group should easily be countered by a single player?